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An interview with myself and the awesome Mark Struczewski on his show: The Mark Struczewski Podcast. We share why podcast hosts should prep less, how to make your podcast profitable and then how and why you should build a system around your podcast production.

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Episode transcript

This is the Mark Chesky podcast. Tom Hunt starts and grows B to B businesses. How does he do that? Well, you're listening to how he does that podcasting. That's what we're gonna talk about in the show today. Tom, welcome to the show.

Mark is an absolute pleasure.

I love podcasting. I got into podcasting back in 2017 and it's all because of Gary Vanerchuck.

So in the spring of 2017, I heard him say, the future is voice and audio, and everyone needs to have a podcast. And I remember when I heard that, I said to myself, you know, I listened to podcasts. Could I have my own podcast? I used to be a radio DJ in the past life, and people say, did you used to be on a radio?

Yes. I used to be a top 40 radio dj, so that's why I can do this stuff. And I remember going to Google and typing out. How do you start a podcast and I just started my podcast and I am amazed at the number of people literally around the world that listen to every one of my episodes. It's amazing. People I have never met are going to hear this conversation, or I should say, are hearing this conversation right now.

And to me, Tom, that is absolutely amazing. Yeah, I guess that's

a power of information. . Yes. And I was thinking as we were chatting before the show, like if you are a so opener on the internet today and you wanna get more attention, which is what you're gonna need to do, if you wanna grow whatever business you have, then you have to create content, right?

And so then we break it down further and I think there's probably four types of content that you could possibly. There's image, there's written, there's audio, and there's video. And so if you are going back to the first point, if you wanna grow your company, you have to create one of these four. And so I would suggest just choosing one.

Trying to get good at it for you. It's obviously audio because you have that experience in radio and then you just like keep like doing and getting better at the thing before you move on to the next one. And so I think for me, I don't think I'm that good at good at video. I think I'm okay at writing.

I'm rubbish at taking pictures or like designing stuff , so it, it have to be audio.

What I find interesting is about a year ago I heard some mind blowing statistics and it was something along the line. This is going back, back in 2021. There's over like 2 billion podcasts, but that's just a total number podcasts in the Apple Podcast directory or Spotify.

But if you look at how many have been updated in the last 90 days, that number is like really, really small. My podcast comes out three days a. Which is even a smaller percentage of that. So people get into podcasting, I think, for the wrong reasons. They look at the Joe Rogan and the Petro Dollar podcast, uh, agreement he had with Spotify.

That's an outlier. Most people don't make a lot of money when they start their podcast. They start their podcast for brand awareness. That's why I do this podcast for brand awareness. So people get into podcasting. I'd love to know your thoughts on this because they think I'm gonna make hundreds of millions of dollars in.

Google, Microsoft, they're gonna throw money at me. No, they're really not. That's not how it happens. Right.

I, I totally agree and I think brand awareness is like a good reason to start a podcast, but I think if you're gonna. Start a show and keep it going for like the time that you need to in order to get for Phish and brand awareness.

Like you've done a thousand episodes right.

Thousand 77 .

You need, I think you need another reason to get you through that. And this is quite topical cause you're also a productivity guy. Is that one show that I started back in 2017? It was a daily show. It was five to 10 minutes a day. Release it with, sorry, Monday to.

Um, and it was basically track. I was building company and it was tracking what I was learning basically each day. And, but the biggest benefit from that show wasn't brand awareness, although it did. Okay. It wasn't getting sponsors or we did actually get sponsors in the end, but it was what I was like, the increased rate of my learning.

Because the best way to learn is to teach. And I had to, cause I bulk recorded them on a Sunday night. So I had to sit down on Sunday and be like, okay, what did I learn about business this week? And then I had to teach it. And so even if I didn't have anyone listening, it was still probably worth me doing that show.

And so I think if, if you are gonna get through like the. Month two to month six period where you might not get much brand awareness, then it's useful to have another reason to actually be doing the show. That's a really

powerful thing, what you just said. You gotta have your why. What I find very impressive is, I think one of the best business cards you can hand someone is your book.

And if you wanna take that to the audio space, having a podcast. So everyone seems to have a podcast these days, but when I tell 'em I have 1,077 episodes now they stand up and they, they go, wow. I, most of my guests, probably 98% of my guests come through agencies. There's a whole bunch of agencies around the world that have found my podcast.

I have so many episodes, and they've listened to the show and they go, cause you can listen to the show and find out the guy knows what he's doing or not. And they go, wow. A lot of episodes. Great guess. He knows how to communicate, knows how to, uh, ask questions. Boom. Here's a guess. Here's a guess. So I've gotten some pretty cool guests on my show, but you're not gonna get that from day one.

The odds of you getting a Gary Vanderchuck or Grant Cardone, your first episode, although it has been done, it's very rare and I would. Not aim for that. I would aim for who's your target audience and show up consistently. Maybe that's every two weeks. Maybe it's once a week. Mine's three times a week, but whatever you do, don't be inconsistent.

Don't do the first Monday and then the third Thursday, and then the second Tuesday, because then people aren't gonna know when to expect your episode. Now, when you have a bigger podcast like a Joe Rogan, you can be inconsistent. But when you're first starting out, You don't even have a lot an audience base, so you have to be consistent so they know on these days, like in mind, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturdays a new episode comes out, then people get used to it.

Oh, it's Tuesday's time for the next episode of Mark's podcast.

Exactly. You're building a relationship with each listener and when you don't have much of an audience, if any of those listeners drop off, then that's significant for you. Right? And so part of that is, is building trust through expectation.

There's one show that I listen to every Saturday morning. It comes out like 6:00 AM I think UK time. It's all in podcasts with like all the Silicon Valley billionaires, and they're like consistent. 90% of the. But the feeling I get when I wake up on a Saturday morning to like go and walk my dog, she's just over there, is like, and listen to that show and it's not, there is like, I'm actually annoyed with them , which is pretty ridiculous cuz it's obviously for free.

Yeah. But so they're good 90% of the time. Sometimes they don't do it. But yeah, it's crucial to just have say it not just the same day but the same.

As well, and I will tell you the pit pivotal moment for my podcast where it went to another level is when I learned the art of active listening. So most people starting a podcast would be terrified to see my workspace.

Tom, I have a piece of paper with your name on it. , and then I have notes that you're saying, mm, people like having prearranged questions. Yeah, because it's a safety thing. It's a, it's a, I don't wanna say it's a crutch, but it's a safety net. And that's okay when you start. But when you develop the act of active listening, in other words, you're actively listening to what the guest is saying, your podcast is gonna take off.

I remember I was a guest on someone's show and this particular person, Had a list of questions and I said something I thought was very profound, and he just said, now my next question is totally ignore it. Like he wasn't even listening to what I'm saying. And if you listen to people like, like Joe Rogan and Tim Ferriss, they are listening to what the guest is saying that is crucial for you to really grow your, your podcast if you're doing interviews, the right.

Yeah, I totally agree. I were the host of a show, 200, so about 20, 20% of what you've done. Mark the, the show I think is the most downloaded show in sales operations, which is like really niche. So it's not like that's not a massive claim , but you're totally right. What I would do is obviously the guests would book into my calendar and then I wouldn't look at it until like two minutes before I'd open their LinkedIn profile and then I scan it.

So I got the name, their company name, their job role, and then we just. And that show has like really taken off though. I think there's definitely something in that. But my question to you, mark, if. A new host who doesn't have radio experience or 900 episodes under their belt, how do they like come on and actually make this work?

You need to do the research when you're just starting out. If you are like, I've never talked a new microphone before. I don't know what a world of podcasting is, you need to do your research. You need to go look at Tom Hunt. You need to look at what he's doing in the world. Go to his profiles and create some questions maybe.

You send those questions. I never do this as you know this Tom, but send those questions to your guests and go, Tom, this is, I'm a new podcaster. I'm, I'm, I'm still wet behind the ears are these good questions? And someone like Tom, who is a prolific podcaster would say, well, I wouldn't do this. I would do this.

I would do that in the beginning, because you wanna set the tone. If you look and listen to episode number one, I call it my worst episode ever because theoretical. Every episode should get better. Okay. I was, I didn't do my first interview until episode 18, but you need to prepare. Now, I know people who have a great podcast, they do research, but for me, I like being in the moment.

And the number one thing my guest will tell me is they like the fact that there's no script. And if there's something else on their heart they want to talk about, they can go and say, I wanna talk about this. You can't do that when you first start, because. Not only do you have to talk to the guests, but then you gotta make sure everything's recording.

Is your microphone working? Mm-hmm. . You have too many moving parts. That's why I was told by some podcasting thought leaders in the beginning do not do interviews in the beginning for the first 15 or 16 episodes, you got enough stuff going on. to worry about a guest. Now when you get comfortable, then you can have guests into the mix.

Got it. There's something that I actually, now you mentioned that something that you wanna talk about. I wanna ask you, mark, is because I think it's clear from what we said so far in this interview that the value from podcasting is gonna come really past episode a hundred. Right. And the part that we are doing now is like the fun part, but they've all, there's like a big load of TAF behind the scenes.

Mm-hmm. that needs to happen in order to like do everything to make the show successful. Now you doing three episodes a week? Probably have a nice system, I'm assuming. Yeah, so I dunno if you shared this already on the show or, or how much you're willing to share, but it would be great to understand a little bit more about how like the machine works behind the scenes, cuz that really is what's gonna make a podcast successful in my opinion.

Are you interviewing

me on my own job ? I can also share how, how we do it as well. No, I

think it's a great, it's a great question. I just, I just love it when the guests ask me a question. So the answer to your question, I've been doing this so much, I do all the editing myself, and one of the things I tell my guests, now, if you've never listened to the show before, because this is April 23rd, we just recorded this yesterday on April 22nd.

This is what really a lot of my podcasting colleagues go, you released the episode the next day. Literally. I do. So I always tell the guests, no swear. And don't say anything you want. Don't want the world to hear on the show because I literally will put the beginning, a mid roll and the ending, and if he sneezes, if Tom should sneeze, you won't hear it.

I cut that out, but then I rolled around the next day. Now, well, how can I do that? You have to vet your guess. So if you're getting people who've never been interviewed before, you're probably gonna have to do a lot of editing cuz they're gonna go, um, you know, so, or the dreaded, I hate that part and I, it takes a long time.

You know what I'm talking about. Uh, I have to add that stuff out. But when you get a quality guess and 99% of the time I get a quality guess they're. Very much podcast guest veterans, and so I have a clean podcast. So if you have a clean interview, literally all I have to do is put the intro, the mid row and the outro on, and I save it as a way file, send it off to a company on Aon, which is outta Denmark, and they make the podcast sound great.

What they do is they take Tom's audio, my audio, and makes it the same. We've all listened to those episodes where the podcast host sounds really good and then you can't hear the guests because either they have a small voice or they're too far away from the microphone. When I get that file back, I just upload it.

I use Kajabi podcast cuz I'm a Kajabi hero, and literally that's it. And then on the morning, the podcast like this morning. I shared it on Instagram Stories, Snapchat, wherever I could share the podcast episode, except for TikTok. TikTok apparently doesn't like you going off the platform. They're throwing a temper tantrum.

Mm-hmm. . So I don't promote things on TikTok anymore. They don't want you doing that, but that's it. I mean, it's now, you can't do that when you first start, but like Tom said, as you get doing it on a regular basis, Then you get a system and you can turn it around really quickly. I also would encourage before you give us your answer, Tom, don't go get an editor and a producer in the beginning.

Learn how to do it yourself, cuz you need to know how to do it. Because what happens if that editor or the producer gets abducted by aliens and you have to edit your show. So I think you should know how to do that. You should do the dirty work in the beginning and then you can outsource.

Yeah, I think that's true for any, when you are looking to outsource any task, if you are able to actually do it or you have some knowledge about it, you're gonna outsource it much better anyway.

So I totally agree with that. Okay. Podcast system from my side. So our approach is that, We like to have different roles. So typically for the show that we are involved with, there'll be a host. Then there'll be someone who's like responsible for the show, typically like a podcast manager or a marketing manager.

And then there's like all the resources that are actually doing the work. And so let's take the, the host time is typically the most valuable, and so we try to protect the host or the host does whose research on the guests, and then does the interview and then. Ideally, there'll be someone else. If not the podcast manager is the host as well, right?

And so then the podcast manager is responsible for orchestrating the system to get all the other work. And so what we like to do for these kind shows is that when a guest would like book in that we can automate the creation of Google Drive folders, Google documents, Trello tasks, slack messages, to alert people so that all of those tasks are assigned.

That isn't like any really product or project management that needs to happen in order for all that, all of these other tasks. Be produced. And so that like automation and like three line process I think really helps because really if, if the host slash podcast manager who is gonna be responsible for actually making this thing happen, and if we can take away as much of the stress or work from them, it is more likely to happen.

So that's our approach. And so I think most of the people listening the host would probably be the same as a podcast manager in this case. And I would recommend. Trying to push away most of the editing or writing, or like video editing task, or like social post writing if possible, if you have the budget available, obviously, so that your life as the host and podcast manager is as easy as possible.

If that's the case, you're gonna be able to be consistent for months or years. Do you feel

overwhelmed and frustrated? Are you under a lot of stress? There's a better way. You only get one life, so why not feel peace and freedom and enjoy your life You. Find out more at 90 days to busting overwhelm.com.

Now we need to go back and talk about you actually have a company that does this, correct? That is correct. Okay, so you have a team. So I am what's known as a solopreneur. I'm a solo podcast host, so that's why I do everything myself. I don't have a team. I'm not Gary Vanerchuck or Greg Cardone yet, so I do everything myself.

But because I've done it for so long, I wanna make sure people understand this, that I, to me, I'm like my own automation machine. I just can just do it. But if you're someone starting someone, Tom's company is a tremendous asset because you're like, oh ho. Managing social media, editing, processing. It's a lot to it, and I taught myself.

I just jumped into the shark infested water in the deep end, and I figured it out. I got bitten, but I got it figured out. I made a lot of mistakes along the way. You don't have to do that. You can go to someone like Tom and get your podcast. Getting in way more places than I did in the very beginning. I had Apple podcast, this is before Spotify did podcasts.

That's how long I've been doing there. But now what I'm on, I'm on Google Podcast and then I learned this about two or three years ago. You can take your RSS feeds and that's what sends it out to all the podcast players and. You can put your podcast yourself on Audible, on Amazon Music on Diesel. So some people will pull from the Apple Podcast library, but sometimes, like I'm on some Japanese podcast player app.

It's only in Japan. I just went there, used Google Translate to translate the page and it's submit an IRSs feed. I'm in some Indian, uh, the country of India podcast player. So once a month I have a list I go through. I got it from pod news dot. They send me a a newsletter every day, and they have this list of all the podcast directories, and you just literally make it a project every month.

Okay, am I in all the podcast directories? Now, here's a pop quiz for you. I bet you don't know the answer. This, Tom, where is the only place you cannot listen to the Marks Du Chesky podcast?

Good question. I'm gonna say North Korea. No,

it's SoundCloud. And the reason why is because SoundCloud wants to charge creators $15 a month.

It's not the $15. They're not even a major podcast player. Okay. Apple Podcast, Spotify, Google Podcast, Stitcher, audible. Those are major players. So it's the principle thing. I will not post on SoundCloud because why would I pay them $15 a month when everyone else is free?

Yeah. I also dislike SoundCloud significantly.

They're either free plan, right? But it's like, Limited by amount of data upload, I think.

But I don't know why they wouldn't host podcasts for free like the other players do and say, listen, if you wanna, you know, music and all that stuff, we're gonna charge you. But I don't understand why they don't say, if you just wanna host your podcast like the other ones, it's free.

I think they're making a big mistake, but then again, they're not a major player in the market anyways. Agreed. So let's talk about mistakes that pe. We've already talked a lot about mistakes. Are there any other mistakes that people make when they get into podcasting that you wanna share with us today?

Good

question. I think the biggest mistake that we see, Now we work primarily on B2B podcasts. And so most companies, they come to us and they, they want, they want to build brand awareness, uh, within like a specific area, within a specific market. And the biggest mistake I see is that they, they position the show too broadly.

Ah, and the best example I always give is, let's say we have a company or a consultant or a software business and they make software for email marketing, like email marketing. And so there's like three levels of categorization that they could basically take for this show. They could have the highest level of categorization, which would be like a marketing show.

The middle would be like an email marketing show, and the bottom, or the most niche would be like a email open rate show. And so in this case, especially if the company doesn't have a big budget or if not a big brand already, I would always recommend to create a show just talking about email marketing open rates.

Hmm. And so there you can probably become the number one most downloaded podcast in email marketing open rates within a few months. You build a loyal audience and then if you want to, you can broaden out. But what most companies actually do, if they say We should start a marketing show, and you go into that red ocean of like thousands of marketing shows and you'd never build a significant audience.

So that's, I wanted

thousands, I imagine, .

Yeah, exactly. And so that's the biggest. Mistake. I see. And so if anybody's listening and you're looking atty a show, when you start always era towards being more niche than less niche, that

that's very powerful. And when I started my show, I started it as the Marks du Chesky podcast.

And everyone says, don't call it the Marks Toski podcast. What does it do? People can't spell your, spell your name. I said, it's a branding play. Because I'm Mark Chesky everywhere. And not only that, but most people are going to find my show when other people share my show, whether it's a guest store or someone listening to it.

Okay? So I'm doing okay with downloads, but a lot of people said, don't do that now. No matter what you call your show, you get a certain point where you don't wanna change it. So after 1,077 episodes, I'm not gonna change it, and I'll tell you why I didn't call it the Super Duper Productivity podcast because I had a vision in the very early days that I wanted to be like a Joe Rogan esque kind of guy.

And what I mean by that is I want to have fascinating conversations with fascinating people, not always in the realm of productivity. So I saw that in the beginning. So now it's called the Marks du Chesky podcast. Like this is not about productivity, it's about podcasting. I've had people talk about Walt Disney World.

I've taught, had people talk about, you know, health and wellness stuff. So I am not framed in, but what you suggest is, Niche and go broad. I decided to plan for the broad from the very beginning. Mm.

Yeah. A different approach. But I, I understand the strategy behind your approach is like to get your name more impressions and, oh, it seems like a working mark.

So

yeah, it is. Now something else I have recently changed on my show is when I listen to shows, I hate the really long introduction. They go on and on and on and on, like five minutes. And, and so now what I do on my show, and the listener already heard this in the beginning, I recorded myself a three second intro.

It says, this is the Mark Chesky podcast. And right in the interview, because I know people don't wanna hear all that bloviating. Now I do drop a 22nd, just a 22nd mid roll, which is a commercial for something I'm promoting on my website, my my coaching program, and that. People didn't tune into this for ads, so I'll be honest with you, I love podcasting.

I very rarely listen to 'em. I actually listening to a Tony Robbins book right now because I, the incessant ads drive me crazy because I only listen to things like audiobooks and podcasts when I'm out on my daily run and if I'm gonna hear five minutes of ads when I'm running, it kind of annoys me.

Everybody's doing ads these days, and they're all doing audible, zip recruiters Zoom legal. It's so annoying. It's the same ads, and so I've elected to listen to audio books because I pay for the audio books and there's no ads in it. Mm-hmm. . But that's the way I do it. But I'm saying, when you start a podcast, remember people are not tuning in because it's you.

They're tuning in to learn something. They're tuning in because you have said in your title. And let's talk about titles in just a minute. How important they are. Mm-hmm. , they're tuning in because they have a problem and your title said that you could solve their problem. They're not listening cuz you're Tom Hunt.

Or you're Mark Chesky. They're listening because, hey, this is something I'm having a problem with. And you can solve it. So I'm gonna listen in, which brings me to titles. I'm embarrassed to say this, but when I started doing interviews, I would say a conversation with John Doe, a conversation with Jane Doe, which is fine if the name is Oprah or Barack Obama, but if it's Tom Hunt or Marks Chesky , nobody cares.

So let's talk about the importance of.

Yeah. Before we get into that, I have a question for you, um, about titles. If would, do you think it would be valuable if you. Select two titles for a podcast episode, and then they would both be released, almost like a split test, and then after 48 hours or so, the one that got the most downloads would be selected.

Like would that be, you think you would use that? Wow,

that's interesting. I never thought about that. I could see the benefits of it. Mm. But I also know that most people listen to the shows in the first 24, 48 or 72 hours. Mm. So that would be done. So I would wonder how would you work with the statistics?

Because you'd have to be, it'd be two distinct episodes and then you'd have to, when you look at the statistics, you'd have to say, Title A was, you know, 400 downloads. Title B was 50, so the total was four 50. And then, I mean, it's a great concept, but I think it would make a mess of your, of your analytics.

Yeah, it would be hard, wouldn't it? Yeah. Anyway, we're just trying to work out if it's possible to build that anyway. Um, so titles, yeah, I'm totally with you. There's a few strategies here. Um, I'm like, have a background in online marketing copywriting. And so I always err towards like the most outrageous, like, uh, almost click petty kind of titles because they pump your numbers.

But the problem with that is if you don't deliver on the promise, you lose trust. And then over the long term you don't grow as fast. So I think my first point would be try and make them like enticing. But ensure that if you do that, you deliver on the promise.

I love that. So I'm, I'm gonna put you on the hot seat right now, Tom?

Mm. Yeah. Okay. Cause we're getting toward the end of the episode. So what do you think I should title this episode?

Such a good, okay, let's, let's roll this. I think two podcast veterans share seven Juicy Insights. On how to start and grow a podcast that is going to change your life. Now that's

too long, Tom.

I can't have that long of a podcast. Ok. Okay.

Okay. two podcast, veterans Share seven podcast tips. . Okay. No. Could you only want the word podcast in there once something, something. Along those lines, I think. What do you think about

that? Okay. Okay. No, I, I think, um, I don't know about the two podcast veterans.

I don't, I think it falls under the question of who cares. So what I think, uh, seven more than seven podcast tips or I'll come up with something. I see. I was gonna try to help you get you to do my heavy lifting here. Tom, you let down on my show. You let me down so anybody who's listening to knows Tom, make sure you send him a message.

He'll tell you how to get a hold in a few minutes here and say, Dude, you had an opportunity to shine and you gave this Earnest Hemingway title. I Can't, two. Why don't we just call it two podcast veterans, one from Houston, Texas, one from England talk about podcasting. Here are seven tips that you can be, have to have a great podcast.

How about that title ?

That actually sounds like a, a reasonable description. Yes.

Oh, there you go. That's something else that's really important is the description. And by the way, I just changed my description. This is something people don't think about. So I have on my computer, I have a note that's got the description and I just copy and paste it.

And I haven't changed it recently. And I was looking at it this morning, which is actually yesterday morning. Cause today's Tuesday, not Monday, but you know where I'm going with this. And I said, you know, some of this stuff is kind of outdated and I, I changed it so, I fight the urge every time I change my description to go back all my old episodes and change 'em.

I went back to April 1st. But I resist it cuz you know, 1,077 episodes, that's a long way to take all descriptions. Um, but yeah, so that's something you need to take, take care of the, the description shouldn't just be, you know, I'm talking to Tom Hunt. It should be Who is Tom? And I always give one link, you know, Tom gave you, you gave me a link that you put in the show notes and I have a little bit about.

But don't put too much in there because number one, a lot of people don't read them because a lot of people don't know to find them. They just go to their podcast player and hit play. So if you spend a lot of time creating this really long show note and we don't know how many people are actually reading them, I guess if you put something at the bottom saying, Hey, you can ring, get a free $25 Amazon card if you click here, I guess you'd know.

But I, I never read show notes. Do you ever read show notes on podcasts that you're not a guest? Probably 10%. Yeah. So I wouldn't spend a lot of time crafting the perfect show notes because most people aren't gonna read 'em. Agreed.

So do you, you, you do do custom descriptions for every episode, right? But yes, I do.

A part of it is

the same. Yes. So I, I have on my, on my template from my note, it says description. Which is where I copy and paste the stuff from you, and then it says, who is Mark Chesky? And I've got like two really short paragraphs about who I am, just in case people wanna know who more is this guy, or they wanna know my guest, they can click on your link, go right to your website.

So I keep it really simple. I've been on one, they're like 5,000 characters long, and I'm like, They got all these links. If you want my email, go here. You want my program? Go here, follow me on Instagram. Go here. I used to do that. And I'm like, no. That's, if you give people too many things to click, they're not gonna click any of them.

Agreed. All right, Tom, we are two podcast veterans that gave people probably more than seven tips to be awesome podcasts, uh, hosts or guests. We gave you some information. You could be a good guest as well. Um, if you wanna be a. Please show up and follow the instructions. Cause one of the things you said, mm-hmm.

but when we first connected, you said, man, I was just rereading all your, your requirements. And I do have a lot of requirements to be on the show because I care about you, the listener. I know your time is valuable. I wanna make sure the guest delivers quality information and I wanna make sure you can hear us.

And so I do have a lot of requirements that my guests, my gonna guests have to abide by. Because it's all for you, listener. That's what it's all about. So

tell and Mark, mark, sorry, before we finish, I think you just stumbled upon the most important podcasting tip just there, and that if anyone's podcasting, the only way your show is gonna grow is if you actually improve the lives of your listeners.

And so you should think, try, try to always think less about what you are gonna get out of the show and more about what they're gonna get outta the show. And then paradoxically, you'll get more out of the show if you. Oh, that is so

powerful. And even like when I, I've gotten to the point now where I, in my podcast, I do what Gary Bannock says I document instead of create.

So I do have guests like you on the show, but I do have episodes like here. I did one that's like nine things you didn't know about Mark Chesky. Okay. That's just because some people may like. Oh, well, I didn't know that about him. That's not the majority of the shows. I do sprinkle those in every once in a while or if I have a real bad day and like, I think a couple years ago I, everything went wrong.

So I recorded an episode because people, I want people to know I'm real. I, I am not. This mega celebrity. I'm not a Gary Bechuck or Grant Cardone, although if you'll talk to them, they'll tell you they're just like you. They just happen to have billions of dollars. And so I want people to know I'm real. So whether it's on my podcast or on social media, I'm always sharing things behind the scenes.

That's okay to do as a podcaster. Don't make it every episode saying, here's three more things about me. Here's three more things about you. Cuz the first one, people are in. But after that, they're like, okay, oh, here's 19 more things you didn't know about me. They get real. That gets really old real quick, right?

Yeah. . So, all right, Tom, question of the show. Where can we find out more about you and find out how we can hear more of your very cool accent?

Yes. I, my, uh, I'm Tom handle on LinkedIn and Twitter, so you can just add me and message me. Um, fame.so is if you wanna learn more about how we do podcast, Wow

fame dot.

So, and I am old enough to remember when there's only.com, dot edu and.org. Now there's dot everything. So make sure, I don't know where you go to if you want to fame dot any other dot, but go to fame dot. So to hook up with Tom and find him on LinkedIn. Tom, thank you so much for being on the show today.

Mark. I

really.

And before we go, I just wanna say thank you so much for listening to this episode of the Mark Chesky podcast. I know that there is an endless stream of options for you in this day and age, but you took the time to listen to the episode. And I wanna thank you from the bottom of my heart, Joan, forget to head on over.

Top five productivity tips.com and get my gift to you. My top five productivity tips. Remember, it's the number five in top five productivity tips.com. They will serve you well. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. We'll see you again real soon.