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In this episode of Confessions of a B2B Marketer, I'm joined by Raul Kaevand of Instantly. We get Raul to share everything he knows about cold email. We cover: how to select a niche, find leads, craft messages with unique angles, add limits for each domain or account for monitoring data from multiple campaigns, personalize emails, and how many emails the Instantly team are currently sending per day for their campaigns.


Cold emails are a powerful tool for businesses to reach out to potential customers, partners, and other contacts.

However, it can be difficult to make sure that your cold emails stand out from the crowd and get the attention they deserve. Fortunately, Instantly's founder Raoul has some tips on how to personalize cold emails for maximum success. First of all, it is important to make sure that you are sending your cold emails at the right time.

According to Raoul, timing is key when it comes to getting people's attention with a cold email. He recommends sending them during business hours when people are more likely to be checking their inboxes and responding quickly.

Additionally, he suggests avoiding holidays or weekends when people may not be as likely to check their email or respond promptly. Next, Raoul recommends doing research on the person you are sending the email too in order to personalize it as much as possible. This could include looking up information about their company or industry in order to better understand what they do and how you can help them with your product or service.

Additionally, he suggests finding out what kind of language they use so that you can tailor your message accordingly and make sure that it resonates with them personally. Finally, Raoul emphasizes the importance of making sure that your message is clear and concise while also being friendly and engaging at the same time.

He suggests using an informal but professional tone in order to show respect while also making sure that your message stands out from other generic messages they may receive on a daily basis. Additionally, he recommends keeping your message short but sweet so that readers don't feel overwhelmed by too much information at once but still have enough information about what you're offering them in order for them to take action if interested.

By following these tips from Instantly's founder Raoul on how best personalize cold emails for maximum success businesses can ensure that their messages stand out from the crowd and get noticed by potential customers or partners who may be interested in what they have offer!

Thanks for listening and hit me up on you have any questions!

Episode transcript

It has always had this little bit like not that good of PR. Coal email gets like a bad rep. But if you do it well, you don't spam, you actually try to help people with a good offer. It has always worked. Hello and welcome to this episode of Confessions of a B2B Marketer.

Today, we are joined by Rao of Instantly. And we're going to dig into a somewhat controversial topic you could say, which is cold email. And Rao is going to take us through his history with cold email, through his history building Instantly, which is a tool that helps you do cold email. And then he walks us step by step through how to set up and scale a B2B cold email campaign.

So let's jump into that discussion now.

Rao, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me, man. That is a glorious view.

Whereabouts are you?

Thanks. I'm in Estonia, Tallinn.

Tallinn, the capital. Amazing.

Well, thanks for your time. What I want to cover today, as you are aware of, is cold email. The resurgence of cold email. I'll give you like a 30 second background to my experience in cold email. When I started out in the game, probably like eight years ago, I remember getting the first, very first client for a little mini agency that I was building through cold email.

And then I kind of, I guess, ignored it for a large percentage of the rest of my years in the game until like three weeks ago when I started using Instantly. And I must say loving the tool and loving actually more, maybe more than the tool, like the way you integrate information into the onboarding and into the whole process. So today I want to cover your thoughts on cold email.

Is it coming back?

Is it back?

And then also want to dig into Instantly how you're growing that in your work with the onboarding and the information.

How does that sound?

Sounds good, man. Pumped. So let's start off with your journey in cold email. It's strangely similar to yours. Like yours legit the same. Started with an agency. I got my first clients with cold email. And then I did 10 other projects throughout like the last 10 years. And now I'm finally back to cold email. So I started with like an SEO agency. I had a web design agency.

I've launched a couple of Chrome apps, some other like startups. I was a salesman at a company. And then at this like sales position, I really learned to put all my skills together. Going out there, doing the outreach for high ticket agencies and courses. Getting those people into your pipeline. What it takes to close a cold prospect. It takes much more effort than people think.

And once you close them, then how to scale those systems up. So if you find a working method, how to do it yourself. And as a sales job, we started our own lead generation agency. Just stumbled upon it because we were pretty good at getting leads, getting clients.

So like, yeah, everybody needs leads. It's an evergreen business. Started doing it. It worked really well. The best agency that we've built with three of other instantly co-founders. And as we were scaling, our course just went through the roof. Because before instantly, you had to pay for every email account if you want to warm them up. If you want to add them to a sending account.

If so, it's let's say it's like 50 bucks per account, which is what most services charge. And then you have 10 accounts. It's already 500. So the costs scaled up really fast. And then we started building instantly for our own use. We weren't even thinking about doing a huge one just for ourselves in the beginning. And as we were building it, we're using it every day.

And then it's just like, it seemed such a good fit. We started using it for all of our own agency users. And then slowly started giving it to beta testers to test. They liked it. Then we did an AppSumo launch last February. And now it's been a year. We're here. We have thousands of clients now. Everything changed. We built it up so much. We've added so many features.

It changed completely from what it was in the beginning. But the premise was simple. Just helping people like you, people that have SaaS companies, agencies, to scale up their code outreach and not have to scale up their costs with different tools.

So the agency that proceeded instantly, is that still operational or have you moved completely to the SaaS?

Yeah, we moved completely to the SaaS. It was a tough decision, but we had to do it. So the agency was still working. We're making like 30, 40K a month from the agency. But we saw instantly it was just about to take off. And we wanted to go all in. And we did the tough decision to quit the agency. We had to refund some clients.

We worked with some clients for like a handover period for a few months. But looking back, we should have done it sooner. But it's like really hard when you have a working business.

But yeah, now it's like completely gone. Haven't even thought about it.

So am I right in saying that you like build up the skills and expertise in this sales job?

You then use that to build the agency. And then use that to build the software. And then also along that journey, you took the IP that you developed in that sales job, refined an agency, produced essentially a course that now people can go through as they become an instantly customer. Exactly. So it's all of these little things coming together.

But the sales job was what gave me a real overview of the entire phone. From start to finding those leads, going out there, reaching out to code lead, getting them into your inbox, then getting a meeting. And then on meeting, closing them and actually getting the money to your bank account. So there are so many different steps. And I feel this is what's been missing a lot with cold email.

People think it's just like send emails and then they close. It doesn't happen like that. It's a completely cold prospect. They don't know anything about you. So it takes a lot more than closing a reference. In our lead management agency, a lot of our clients were like, yeah, just give me a lead role and I can close them. But these dudes have only been closing references, like just friends.

And it's not the same with cold projects. You have to put in so much more effort. So we're trying to put all our knowledge and insights into instantly with those courses and every checklist, everything used in our agency to help people and show them that, yeah, it's hard, but you can do it if you put all the steps in place. So right now you guys don't sell any course.

All your IP becomes available as you become an instantly customer. Exactly. We thought about, yes, we could make some more money, but it's not really about that. Our goal right now is just instantly, go instantly, get more clients and to lower Instantly's churn.

And the biggest reason why people leave instantly is because they don't get success and how we can help them to get success is just train them, show them exactly what works and help them more like that. Makes total sense.

Do you think the cold email is like coming back?

Because it seems like maybe when we started, it was like thing, then it became like less trendy, but now it seems like everyone's doing it. So I think it's a little bit like it has never gone away. It has always been there, but maybe like thanks to instantly and some other tools, it's getting more popular. And I had like one dude that told like, oh, instantly made cold email sexy again.

It has always had this like a little bit like not that good of PR. Cold email gets like bad rep, but if you do it well, you don't spam, you actually try to help people with a good offer. It has always worked. Now it's just people are getting more and more tools. They're getting more knowledgeable thanks to, there are so many different people. It's not only us that help cold emails.

There's so many people, so many courses, so many YouTube channels out there that help people ethically and really well sell via cold email. It feels just like the knowledge has gone up. The tools are getting better and better competition with other sources. So it's just, it's like a level above what it used to be.

What do you think is the number one most important thing to hit on in the first email in a sequence?

So I think it's a little bit counterintuitive that you shouldn't be doing everything with your first email. The first email should only be to open up the conversation, maybe see if there's a pain point. Don't try to sell everything and tell everything about your product in the first email. That doesn't work. And usually I do on my YouTube channels, cold email roasts and people posting in our group, just roast my email.

And usually it's just you take away 80% of the fluff. There's like too much stuff. People are so busy. You just cut down the noise. Just give them straight up where you find them, what you're offering. If you've done the same thing for a similar company and just ask them if they're okay, if you send over more information.

That's I think another cool part is the call to action because people are so busy. If you ask for a meeting, if you send a calendar link, it usually yields less responses than if you ask mind if I send more information.

Hey, I have this exact thing for you that might help you do this.

Mind if I send you more information?

You just reply yes and you send them. And if it works, then you take over from there. So just the first email should be opening up the conversation, not selling. Makes sense. So cut it right down, add a little bit of social proof in there and have like a very smooth, low commitment CTA. Exactly. Makes total sense.

Mind, so I'm currently running with instantly what I liked or what I loved. And I really agree with the whole making email sexy again. It's just the setting up multiple domains, multiple accounts in the domains, warming them up because I think previously my hesitance with cold email may have been that I obviously didn't want to burn my own email account in my own domain.

And I would have never like gone to set up separate accounts, etc. or known why I was doing it if it wasn't for instantly and what you guys do. So I think that was something sexy because it almost feels like I can just keep going with new domains.

Obviously, like we don't want to spam and we want to keep like good reputation on all of them. But I'm just not jeopardizing like my emails to customers, etc.

Okay, going to spam. That's what I liked. I think that's like a really good point because we just had dinner with another good cold emailer, Levi, he's from Finland. And we're talking about that people take cold email too seriously. So they're super afraid to get started because or whatever kind of biases and like reasons in the past and like you shouldn't be afraid to burn in like a secondary domain.

You shouldn't be afraid of getting points to the maze, testing it out. And that's what's holding a lot of people back. They get like bogged down into these technical details, what my SPFT came, all this technical stuff should be, what's the exact number of how many emails I should send daily, like all this stuff.

It really doesn't matter if you're just sending emails and your service is good and reaching out to people that can benefit from your offer. It's like all of this. There's like you don't need to overthink it. You can even send from your like main domain. Like you can start there. You can even use Gmail. I have a friend who's like Gmail. He couldn't wait two weeks for the warm up.

Just started using Gmail, reaching out to people. So you can do it. Just like don't be afraid. Some people just are like overthinkers like myself. So I'm trying to now like take away those like blockers from people. Just like go for it. Like just send hundreds of emails. See like what comes back. Worst case scenario, you get a client.

Do you guys use cold email to grow instantly?

Yeah, that's our main channel.

Who you're targeting?

I guess agencies are ideal or B2B SaaS companies. Yeah. So agencies are the biggest start group. Then marketers, salespeople, and you know B2B SaaS. It used to be for SaaS because it's low ticket. A cold email wasn't really a good channel because it's like if you take a salesperson into the sales process, it's just ROI wasn't there.

Like if one person has to jump on a call and the ticket is like $50 a month, it's just not worth it. But now with Instantly and similar tools, the cost has come down so low that you can send so many emails that it makes up for the costs. So we're trying more and more to push for the SaaS.

But for SaaS, it's like most of them don't think that cold email is worth it.

But yeah, like we are the best case study for SaaS. It's absolutely possible.

Are you sending more or less than a thousand emails a day?

More.

More than 10,000?

Less.

Less, around 5,000.

Okay, makes total sense. And so you're then like with a similar, I don't want to break down your whole funnel, but similar opening email to that, I assume, and then you just move people through.

And I guess because the starting plan is like $39 a month, right?

You can most likely not get on a call and just have people sign up.

Yeah, exactly. So in the beginning, we're doing a lot of calls. And I recommend this for like if they're other SaaS founders, in the beginning, you should be doing calls. But now we've completely automated it and we're substituted ourselves with sales videos, documents, everything you need is in InstaD. We do webinars three times a week. We do Facebook lives in our group. So we just like taking ourselves out of it.

And we're just like, check it out. Check out this loom, check out this video, how InstaD works. If you like it, get started for free. Just try it out. We have webinars, jump on them. All the information is here. So it has worked really well for us, just completely automated the funnel.

What else are you using to grow apart from cold email?

So we've tested other channels. We're doing a lot of social media. So we're posting on Twitter. Twitter has been a big source. And our Facebook group, right now we've grown it to a little bit over 12,000 people. And so there's a lot of activity there. And I said like most people are like, maybe not most, but a lot of people there aren't using InstaD. So we're building up these communities.

And then we're pitching InstaD there. We also have a YouTube channel. It's like mostly social and also we've been doing now for a few months SEO, just content, a little bit back linking, just writing up valuable information about InstaD.

Nice, makes total sense.

Yeah, the Facebook group, 12,000 people, how are you keeping that engaged?

So we monitor it every day. It's a close group. People have to apply and we don't approve every post that people do. So we actually, the founders still, we don't have an admin. Like we're there every day. One of InstaD's co-founded is the main guy that's in charge of the group. So every day just making sure all the topics that go out there are actually providing value and we reply ourselves.

So this morning I just like took a couple of posts, get some comments of helping people, like how to target people, how to write copy. So I think it's just value and not letting people spam with random stuff.

Yeah, makes total sense. So to run through the process of starting a cold email outreach campaign, the first thing we need to do is to assume, find the people we're going to reach out to.

And I think you guys recommend a few places, but is there like anywhere specific you recommend people to go to get the data?

So I would say maybe even before that, the first step is to selecting the niche and who we're going to target. And based on that, we can then select the channel of where we can find those people. So if it's very unique, there's no database available. Your only option might be you need to hire a freelancer that does custom scraping for you to find those leads.

If you're more generic offer, like an agency, SaaS, you can use the main one, still Apollo is one of the biggest ones, the most, it's still good. And then there are, if your offer is very specific to, let's say, a technology, you want to target Shopify stores only, there are a bunch of database for that, or you can use Buildwith, buildwith.com that has technology filters.

So you can filter based on exactly what technologies companies are using. So it's very specific of who you're targeting. But I always recommend people just, if it's Google, you're going to find like so many options. And cold emailing, like any other marketing, should be constant work. It's not like I get the Apollo, now I'm done. Like I'm set for next few years. It should be constant.

Like every day, you're going to find, maybe I'll find a new target group, maybe I'll find a new database. For example, in the sales job, everybody was using the main tools, Apollo, and I found Crunchbase. And for whatever reason, Crunchbase leads worked so well. I was booking most demos of the entire sales team, because I found this like untapped niche.

And nobody could have told me it existed because the other people weren't using it. So it's the same for you. I can just recommend you the ones that I'm using. But if you just Google, just your keyword, lead database, leads, you will find the best options. And sometimes you find these gold mines that nobody else is using.

Yeah, exactly.

The more, if you think about it, the more rare the lead source, obviously the higher conversion you should get, because in theory, fewer people are emailing them. Exactly. Everybody's using Apollo, like the same leads. If you use the main ones like Apollo, US, New York, marketing and advertising, these people are receiving so many emails daily. Cool. Okay. So we've got the lead list, ideally from an unknown source.

We then, and I don't think we need to go into detail on like setting up domains, because that's all very well documented and instantly. We're going to link below to instantly, by the way, guys. And if you're running cold emails, go there. I think if they're a freemium plan, you mentioned.

Yeah, there's a free trial.

Two weeks, you can test everything out. Exactly.

So buying, setting up your domains, all very well documented and instantly. Then next up, I guess we have the leads, we have the domains set up and ready to go.

I guess the next step is the copywriting or am I missing something?

So you got the domains, you get the emails, you set them up, connect them instantly, you start warming them up. And while they're warming up, then you can start working on the campaigns. And this is, I think, where people are struggling the most, because copywriting is, there's infinite options. There's so many things you can do.

So again, in instantly, we have our own template database. You can just, there's hundreds of templates for different issues. You can just start there, take something super simple. And like we talked before, keep the first team as super simple. Just very short couple of sentences, if you can do that and try it out. You don't even have to use like follow-ups.

So I think the biggest thing when we're starting, people can overthink.

And yes, you can add follow-ups and everything. But if you're just getting started, just get one email out. You don't need to add follow-ups and just start with that.

And try to, if you can, comment, just like, if you receive that email, would you actually respond?

Make it as easy as possible. Think about how it would actually work if you get this email. Let's say you're a lead generation agency and you're targeting, let's say, SEO agencies.

So what are SEO agents looking for?

And you build your email on that. Another thing that people can do is, hopefully, you already have case studies. So just use those. If you have a case study about Influence Marketing Agency, then don't start targeting SEO agencies. Just target more Influence Marketing Agencies. Use the things that are unique to you, that you have deep domain expertise. Don't try to think, oh, I think this target group might be good.

Just see where your clients are and target more similar people. And then you also know what they liked. It's going to resonate more. And it's going to just, you're going to get more responses if you're super targeted and you know what you're talking about. For example, in our lead generation agency, we onboarded a client. We're very suspicious about if it's actually going to work. And it was a small, sustainable marketing agency.

We were like, what is this like sustainable marketing agency?

Seems like fluff. But they were actually the only one to target sustainable e-commerce stores and help them grow. So their mission is to still make money, but keep the planet first. And while we used that in the email and reached out to sustainable e-commerce stores, it resonated so well because it's the same mission. And we didn't know it because we didn't have any experience with it. They did.

And it was one of our easiest clients. So if you have these unique angles, that's just very specific to you, use those.

Otherwise, just start with a template and get into the habit. Create the Google calendar event every morning, 15, 30 minutes, will write a new copy.

Again, this should be constant. It's not like you said it and forget it.

Every day, try to find a new angle, write everything.

And when people ask me, like Raoul, how many copies, how many campaigns, how many emails it takes to get results?

It's like I make as many until I get a response, as many as it takes. For some clients, we got emails or responses straight away. For some clients, it took 30 campaigns, 30 different angles you tested.

So it's, yeah, you should always keep testing and trying different options. You never know what's going to work. The first great example, and I think this is maybe the crucial point, is comparing what you do really well as a business or what you believe as a business and then matching that with who you target.

Because if there's like an identity or belief level similarity between you and the ideal prospects, then you have that immediate resonance between your message. And that's such a great example of the sustainable e-commerce store.

Next up, yeah, so what you're essentially saying is that we have one unknown, which is the leads, and then we have the other unknown, which is what we're going to say to the leads. And what you're saying is we just have to keep iterating on these until we get a match.

Yeah, so like if you take an offer, there are so many different angles you can hit from an offer. Like you can hit just the main benefit for the company. I'm helping you make more money. I'm going to help you save time. I'm going to help your company grow. So if you understand your offer, just write down all the different benefits and just try them out.

With Instantly, you can do one campaign and you can test as many different options as you want. So you can just have the same email copy. Just try different value proposition. And see what resonates with people. And you just should be going through all of these and same thing with your audience. So one thing what you mentioned was that their belief system, like the sustainability, but it also can be a region.

For example, another good campaign, we did was in UK and there's a region called Midlands. So we were like, hey, I also saw you're from Midlands because our client that we did a campaign for was from Midlands. And it immediately resonated. It got so much more responses compared to like a random person from Estonia messaging a Midlands person that doesn't know anything about them. Same thing with slang.

So if you're talking like Australia, they have a bunch of different slang words. Same with UK. If you can use those things and fill your emails up with these little signals, belief system, region, the more of these kinds of things you have, the higher the chances it's going to resonate. So let's say you're able to obtain 5,000 leads that are good for you.

Are you then saying that you'd have a number of different campaigns each, say with 200 leads, where you test these different messages or within the actual campaigns, you can split test different email copy, right?

So would you do both of those?

How would you structure this testing?

So we divide people into two categories pretty much. So if you have at least two case studies, it shows a little bit that you have product market fit. You have two clients that had paid you money. So it's working, this message working, you're helping these people. If you have this kind of target group, then you can take those 5,000 leads and craft one message and you can try different variations.

But this target is 5,000 people in one campaign straight away because you already have some proof that your offer works. If you're coming up with a completely new offer, you don't know what works, then I would recommend creating multiple different campaigns on smaller lead sizes to test out much different angles. Cool. Okay.

So you can add all 5,000 into one campaign and it will just cycle through them based on the amount, the limits you have for each domain or account. Yeah. So you can add the limit on account level and also the campaign level. And then again, you can monitor data.

You can do five campaign, you put 5,000 leads in, you do one email copy for a week, it is doubt, you see how many responses you got. If you didn't get any good responses, just change the copy completely, but you can still keep the same campaign running and see how the results are the next week. So you can keep it super simple. You don't have to create a new campaign every time.

Makes total sense. Cool. Okay.

And then, so we've done the copywriting.

The next, I guess, is the follow-ups, but that's kind of included in copy as well. I think you guys have some templates in there instantly. And then I guess the next stage is the closing on the call.

I think, so the first step, which is actually what a lot of people underestimate, is if you get a positive response or an interested lead, how you can turn that into a call. So it's a completely its own game, how to go about it. There are a bunch of different ways. So in Instantly, we add a, we call it the Unibox, where all the leads come in to one inbox.

So if you have 10, 100 accounts, all the responses come to one inbox, and then you can start responding from there. And then it's again on you to find out how to get most of these people on calls. Some people just want to jump straight on call. If you already create the interest, with some people you have to work more. We have a bunch of different templates and ways to do that.

Again, in the Instantly Accelerator. Just some quick pointers, I would say, is pricing. It again seems counterintuitive, but you really don't want to give out pricing before they know what you're offering. Most people just are scared of a price, even if it's worth it. And you want to be as personalized as possible. So if a person is like, yeah, I'm good.

Can you call me?

But you usually send kind of links, you should actually call them. Just don't then send the kind of link if they ask you to call them. Just do that. And also Loom videos work great. If you send first email, mind if I send more information, just like, yeah, send more, then I would record a Loom video. I wouldn't say like, hey, here's my calendar link.

Let's book a link and I will show you. I was like, hey, here's 30 second Loom, working through, let's say, Instantly. Here's how it works. Here we do this, this and this. And I would love to jump on a call and show you something very specific to you that helped me instantly grow to X. So then Loom videos work really well for us.

And then being consistent, not all people, even if they're interested, are going to jump on a call after first email. So if you send an email in Instantly, you can send to the reminder. If no response in X days, remind them to follow up. And then you follow up again and again and again and again until you get the response. Until they say, no, most people are actually thankful.

Like, thanks for reminding me. I was so busy. And then once you get them to book a meeting, then there's another part before the demo, which is, for example, if you're using Calendly, if they book in a meeting, there's 70, 80% of show up rate. Some people are just going to not show up.

So it's on you again to create that follow to make them, for example, like if I booked in this podcast, I got a reminder one hour before that, hey, you have a podcast coming up. So this automated emails already help, but you can send over handwritten or personalized emails.

Let's say, you have an interest, hey, super excited to talk with you. Here's a quick loan video I made already. I want to cover these things on our call. It already improves your show up rates. And now when they jump on a call, again, that's like completely new ballgame, the closing part. There's so many different things. You mentioned you're going to add links below.

We have our entire sales process structured and written down inside instantly, but pretty much in the beginning, it's discovery portion, qualification. So we honestly want to realize if we can help them.

Can we actually help this company?

Do they have the money if we can help them?

And are they ready to get started right away?

If they're not ready to get started right away, they want to start in like six months, like don't do the demo. You're just wasting 30 minutes, an hour of your interest time. Like so much will change in six months. You will never probably see them again. So if you can actually help them, it's a fit business-wise. They have the money and they want to get started straight away.

If they like what you see, then do the demo. And then it's on you to showcase your offer the best that you can. We start with case studies, showing them that we've done the exact same thing we're promising to do to them, the very similar clients, because the biggest problem, the hardest part about closing cold prospects is trust. They just don't know you.

So you just have to show them you've done the exact same thing.

Tell them, yeah, you can reach out to these references. You can talk with them. Happy to give you those things. And then I usually give a high-level overview. Here's how it works. We start with this, then we do this, then we do this. And then you go in detail of showing them exactly how it works.

We do have a little like slide deck that we use, but now with Instantly, when we started selling it, we just used Instantly. Showed case studies on a pitch deck. And then straight into the actual tool. I would recommend the same. If you have an agency, SaaS, show your SaaS. If you have, let's say, let's say an agency, what I would show is just inboxes of clients.

But here's an inbox one of clients, see how many responses. Inbox two of these clients, see how many responses. And just show them live how you're doing it.

Again, trust. You want to show them you actually know what you're talking about. You can actually help them. And then in the end, you do the Q&A, go through all the stuff. And then you should actually ask for the close. And then there are a bunch of stuff you can do with pricing money-wise to get the deals done a little bit faster.

But yeah, usually that's it. And then again, you have to be consistent. You have to follow up with people. You're going to get so many positive demos that end up not closing because people, again, are so busy to forget most of the stuff that you talked about. If they're interested, you need to follow up straight away. You need to book them in for thumbs up, thumbs down call, write on the call.

If you can, one call closes are rare, but you can do them. And you need to be ready for main objections. If you're starting doing sales calls, you're going to start getting the same objections over and over again. Write them down. Write the best answer that you can. And you get better and better at handling them.

And if you want to grow a sales team, then you can do that in the beginning. All the founders should do it themselves. And if they're sufficient at closing, then you can scale it up. You can take yourself out of the sales process, write down the SOPs, the documentation, and then have a sales team do it for you. You pay them on commission.

And I don't know, I covered like so many different things. That doesn't make sense to have any other questions.

Yeah, yeah, that was super useful on that final part because it seems like that is the final like stage of the process. And it's a hurdle that all of the great work you've done previously will just go to zero if you don't have this skill set.

But again, like you have, here's what I think is so great about this example is that even things that are not directly related to using the tool, you guys have like best in class training on, which is what really stood out for me when I went through like the onboarding and process, I'd actually never really seen anything like it.

So really, really cool. I think the one thing I'm going to take away from this interview though, is like cold email never went away. But what you have to do isn't sure that you're personalizing, trying to add value and you iterate and test.

Would you agree?

Yeah, 100% agree. We never recommend people to spam. It's just don't overthink it. Cold email is just reaching out to another fellow human. And if you have a good offer, like it's actually going to benefit them. Like if you're actually trying to help people, it's just that you're just reaching out to another person. Be friendly, be short, straight to the point, personalize those emails and yeah, you're going to see success.

Like it's very hard to fail.

Raoul, thank you so much for your time. Below is going to be, we'll link to social profiles, but we'll also link to the cold email roast on YouTube. And of course, instantly people can get a free trial if you want to jump into cold emailing.

Raoul, thank you so much for your time. Thanks man, it was a pleasure. See ya.

All right, well thank you so much to Raul for coming on and sharing all his wisdom. If you have any feedback about the show, please leave that in the form of a rating or a review on Apple and now Spotify. And thank you to Raoul for coming on and of course, thank you for listening.