In this episode of Confessions of a B2B Marketer, we're joined by Alex MacCaw of Clearbit. We get Alex to share some underground B2B growth strategies that the implemented at Clearbit. He then shares what's working in the B2C SaaS marketing space as Reflect just hit $20k MRR!

As a technical founder, you know that content marketing is an essential part of any successful fundraising strategy. Content marketing can help you reach potential investors, build relationships with them, and ultimately secure the funding your business needs to grow.

But what are the specific benefits of content marketing for B2B and B2C companies?

In this article, we'll explore the advantages of content marketing for both types of businesses, as well as share a technical founder's experience with using content to raise funds. Content Marketing for B2B Companies Content marketing is especially beneficial for B2B companies because it helps them establish credibility in their industry and build relationships with potential customers.

By creating informative blog posts, whitepapers, case studies, and other forms of content that provide valuable insights into their products or services, B2B companies can demonstrate their expertise and establish themselves as thought leaders in their field. This not only helps them attract new customers but also encourages existing customers to remain loyal to the brand.

Additionally, by providing helpful resources on topics related to their industry or product offerings, they can position themselves as reliable sources of information that potential customers can trust. Content Marketing for B2C Companies For B2C companies looking to increase sales and customer loyalty, content marketing is just as important.

By creating engaging blog posts or videos about topics related to their products or services – such as how-to guides or product reviews – they can provide valuable information that will help potential customers make informed decisions about which products or services best suit their needs.

Additionally, by sharing stories about how real people have used their products or services successfully – such as customer testimonials – they can create an emotional connection with potential buyers that will encourage them to purchase from the company over competitors.

A Technical Founder's Experience With Content Marketing When it comes to raising funds through content marketing strategies specifically designed for technical founders like myself (who may not have a lot of experience in fundraising), I've found it incredibly helpful to create educational resources on topics related to my business model and industry trends that I think would be interesting/useful for investors who are considering investing in my company.

For example: I recently wrote a series of blog posts outlining our unique approach towards developing software solutions tailored specifically towards our target market; this helped us demonstrate our knowledge base while also giving investors an insight into why our product was worth investing in compared to other similar solutions on the market today.

Additionally, I've also created several case studies highlighting successful projects we've completed in order to show investors how our solutions have been able to solve real-world problems faced by businesses within our target market; this has helped us stand out from competitors while also showing investors why investing in us would be beneficial both financially and strategically speaking.

Overall, utilizing effective content marketing strategies has been incredibly beneficial when it comes time for me (as a technical founder) raising funds from investors; not only does it allow me showcase my knowledge base while demonstrating why investing in my company would be advantageous compared other similar solutions on the market today but it also helps me build relationships with potential investors which ultimately leads more successful fundraising efforts down the line!

Thanks for listening and hit me up if you have any questions!

Episode transcript

The link backs we got were just incredible. That boosted our SEO and meant that we could rank for any keyword that we wanted to. So we would just put out marketing pages with whatever keyword we wanted to rank for. And those would instantly be at the top of Google search.

All right, team, big episode today. We're joined by Alex McCall, who founded ClearBit B2B marketing data business. And we get some sweet little insights onto what they did to essentially hack growth, like getting Matthew Backlinks from Oracle, et cetera, from producing a free tour. He's also now the founder of Reflect, a note taking app. And so we dig into the B2C strategies he's using for that.

So let's jump into this conversation right now.

Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me.

Whereabouts is the boat?

So boats in Grenada. I basically keep it down here because it's far enough south that it doesn't get hit by the hurricanes cross fingers. And then I generally just sail around the Grenadines and that's where I live. That's absolutely amazing.

And wow, thank you for joining us from the boat via Starlink, by the way, if people are listening. So this is an ad for Elon. Yes.

But Alex, also thank you so much for giving us your time and coming on the show because we are going to be diving into the contrast between B2B and B2C marketing from the view, really, I think, of someone who's a founder and is also technical, right?

So this is quite a unique angle that we're going to be taking on these two halves of marketing. So for those that don't know, well, actually, let's give a shout out right away to the current product, which is Reflect. Right. So that's what your big focus is now.

Would you agree?

Yep, yep. And Reflect is a note taking tool. It's kind of like notes on steroids. We've tried to apply some of the really advanced ideas that you find in Rome and some of these other note taking products that simplify them and made batteries included products. Apple.

Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like it just works.

You know, the Apple slogan. That's what we're trying to do.

And so, you know, in note taking, there's a, I don't know if you know much about the industry, but there's you can go down a huge rabbit hole of different customizations and this and that. And actually people end up spending more time customizing their notes than writing them. And I wanted to kind of change that and put the focus back on the writing.

So I've been working on Reflect for a couple of years now. And then prior to Reflect, I was working, oh, I started a company called Clearbit that is in the B2B data space. And that company is Venture and did the whole shebang. And Reflect is in the B2C space and is semi bootstrapped, semi crowdfunded.

So I've actually, I think a pretty good perspective now about what are the pros and cons and what are the differences about all these different B2C versus B2B, crowdfunding versus VC. And so I can hopefully say something interesting about those things. For sure. So anyone listening now that, I don't know, is using OneNote or is using anything else to take notes, go to Reflect.

That's Reflect.app and take a free trial for 14 days and check it out. So that's the first thing. It'll be linked below as well.

But Alex, let's go back to the Clearbit days. Very broad questions to start with.

What did you learn about B2B marketing from the Clearbit journey?

Well, the nice thing about B2B in general is that there are these playbooks. And honestly, these playbooks just work. You can do your innovation on the product and you raise the VC money because you've got to pay for lots of large headcount, lots of sales reps, sell things and then marketers and yada, yada, yada. But then you run the playbooks and the playbooks generally work pretty well.

And sometimes you'll innovate slightly on that sales marketing process. But often you'll try to innovate and then you will come back to the playbook. So our sales cycle at Clearbit was fairly normal for the type of companies we were targeting. So we were targeting SMBs.

And again, that definition varies between different companies. But for us, it was a few hundred employees and the product costs started out at about $12,000 a year. So and then that was the ACV was, I think when I was there, it was about $25,000 a year.

So we're not talking like million dollar contracts because I think the sales cycle would be quite different and the marketing would be quite different for that kind of thing. And we're not talking about self-serve either. So we're talking about SMBs. The nice thing about Clearbit was we had a kind of try before you buy model.

And that if you can build that into your business, you should absolutely do that because it decreases so many costs because people can kind of pre-qualify themselves. If someone can just try before they buy, then that saves a lot of costs as well. But I can get more into different strategies for content and demand gen and that kind of thing if you and your listeners would be curious. Yeah.

I'd love to maybe just pick out one or two and if we can get as specific as possible, that would be awesome. Sure. So one thing I highly recommend, free tools.

OK, so I think I would separate this from the try before you buy. These are like completely separate tools that are orthogonal to your main product, but are useful in some fashion and they're completely free. So we created a Gmail integration that would display our data inside Gmail. Nice. And I should elaborate on what Clearbit actually does. So we essentially enrich people in companies.

So you give it a work email address and it will give you back some attributes on where that person works, a job title, seniority, and then a bunch of information about their company. And you can use this to qualify leads programmatically, do lead scoring, and also define new customers and so forth. So you can imagine we have a lot of data. We're a data company.

So we built this tool called Clearbit Connect. It was totally free. That would display our data inside of Gmail and also let people individually like find about 100 emails a month so they could click through our little widget and find people's emails and just work emails or want to qualify that. And it's a very useful product that took off. We had hundreds of thousands of people install that product.

We even initially kind of kickstarted that by distributing it through Facebook ads. And then it just, after a while, we didn't even have to do that. It just took off. I guess through word of mouth or people, this was back in the day, where the sales reps were in the same room.

So they would be like, oh, what's that tool you're using there?

Just quickly on distribution, that's super interesting because obviously a free product, but I guess you wanted to jack up the early installs, right?

So you went to Facebook. I assume it was pretty cheap to get an install of the free product, but you were getting exposure to like wide exposure for the Clearbit brand as you were doing that.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

So I mean, and people were like, oh, I'm going to do that. Exactly.

So I mean, and people have done this. E-Marketers will do this all the time. They'll put white papers in their Facebook ads.

It's just a slightly more interesting ad to click on then buy my stuff, right?

It's like, oh, so you've downloaded my free white paper or use this free tool that's actually useful and completely free. So that was a really good strategy for us. And we repeated that again with something called the Logo API. And that API is very, very simple. It goes from a company domain name to a company logo. And we already had all that data internally and that API internally.

And we were just like, what would happen if we made this free?

And we actually had one condition of using it, which was you had to link back to us if you were using it. And we released this thing, Top of Hackin' Use for the day. And everyone used it. I think even PayPal uses it. It's unbelievable. And then the link backs we got were just incredible. So that boosted our SEO and meant that we could rank for any keyword that we wanted to.

So we would just put out marketing pages with whatever keyword we wanted to rank for. And those would instantly be at the top of Google's search. So good. I have a couple of clarification questions, if that's okay. Yeah. For both of these tools, I assume the ongoing cost of the code was pretty negligible.

Or was it significant?

Cool. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. So it's just the upfront development cost to build them. And you had the VC funds, so you're kind of cool there.

On the back linking for the API, did you have to police that or was it just like use this and then please link to us?

Or did they have to?

We did police it a bit. So we looked at our logs and we looked at the referrers. And then we noticed that Oracle were using it. And we were like, you know what, those guys can pay, you know, because they weren't violating our terms and they weren't paying us a thing. So we eventually created a paid plan around the API, which we charged the big boys who were violating the terms.

But in general, the startups, it was a gentleman's agreement. We just hoped that they would abide by. I just absolutely love the fact that you guys, I don't know, let's say you spent 50 grand on building the or like releasing the logo API and then you just got this almost endless stream of high quality backlinks to give you an endless stream of organic traffic. I think that's awesome.

Yeah, it's a really good idea. Yeah.

Was that your idea?

It was. It was. Alex. Amazing.

Yeah, no, and it was definitely didn't cost us 50 grand to make it. I think I made it in a week, but yeah, those are two pretty good ideas. And then we did a lot of conventional advertising through Facebook. When we started out, it was very unusual for B2B companies to do any kind of advertising through Facebook. It's not unusual these days, but it's less common.

And that's partly because Facebook have to this day, absolutely abysmal targeting for businesses. It is nuts. You like targeting basic stuff like which company and job title and that kind of thing you can't do. And we actually ended up building all that internally. We had a lot of that data. We can create those audiences on Facebook. So we built out those audiences of exactly our ICP.

Again, we used our own data to calculate who our ICP was. So we basically crunched through all the data and sales for us and looked at all the one and lost leads and then looked at all that enrichment data to figure out what kind of companies they were.

You know, what size and what vertical and basically to see which companies we were successful with and which companies we want. And also that we did the same with roles and seniorities and find the right person. And then we would go out and create those ad audiences.

And that was very successful to such a degree that we actually ended up productizing that and turning into a solution for the companies to use as well. Nice. That makes total sense. And so it's almost like the marketing department of clear bit was like R&D for the product. That's right. Yeah. And so we had running marketing for a long time was Matt Sonson, who was an ex-founder.

And I think that is a really good idea when you're early on to hire a marketer who's an ex-founder because they will be hacking stuff together and they will apply a founder mindset to marketing and growth marketing and they will be technical and they won't require massive teams and they'll subcontract out everything.

At one point, our marketing department, I think had like 20 different contractors working for it and it's like way more efficient for the company if you can grow like that. That's another bit of advice I have. Very nice. So we've got the logo API, we have the Gmail enrichment tool, and we have the Facebook ads with like awesome custom audiences.

Any other little gems from clear bits between marketing that you can share?

Yeah. So we wrote a few books. We basically wanted to be seen as the market experts in the field. And so we wanted when people got on calls with us, sales calls with us, we wanted them to feel like they were talking to experts and they could trust our advice. Not just clear bit, but just marketing in general.

So we wrote a bunch of books in collaboration with our community, people who were clear bit customers or clear bit fans. And some of them were very notable. So we had different people write different chapters of these books, these notable people in the community, and then they would share these books through their clouds, their Twitter, what have you. And so that was a good strategy.

And I can talk more about how your strategies evolve, especially I think it's more interesting in B2C, where you will be very intentional about kind of one-off unsustainable stuff right at the start, and then you'll try and find more sustainable strategies as you go forward. Yeah.

I mean, so we can let's shift to B2C in a second. So I just want to go a little bit deeper on the book thing. So this is a combination of content and then author influences. So you found these people that had an audience or had some clout in the world of B2C marketing, collated them together to produce books.

And then you would, I assume once you had that book, the chapter authors would share it, but then you'd probably, I guess, share that with prospects, et cetera.

Ideally, they would read that so when the sales calls, then you guys are the authority.

Yeah, that's right. And you can make it really easy for people. Like we ghost wrote the books. We just basically did interviews with all these people because they're very busy people and they're not going to just sit there and write a chapter for you. And so we just basically did phone interviews with them. And then ghost wrote the chapter with them. I love it.

And I guess, like in terms of trying to attribute that back to revenue, it's going to be pretty hard. Like maybe the sales cycle decreased because people trusted you more.

Maybe they quoted the book when they came to like your site or they told a salesperson that they read the book or was there any other ways you could see how that helps you guys like make my money?

Yeah, so we definitely tried to every marketing project, which we tried to look at attribution for and see if we'd made a good investment or not. It's extremely difficult to do. But the thing is, and let's just say the book costs 50 grand, you only need like four, I don't know, three customers from it and it's paid for itself. And so we did try and do attribution.

But as we'll talk about with Reflect, attribution is unbelievably difficult to do with any kind of accuracy. So we did our best effort. For sure.

Let's now shift to your experience with Reflect and before we jump into like specific things, what would you say has been the biggest difference between the B2B approach with Clearbit and this B2C approach with Reflect?

One of the reasons that I wanted to do B2C next was that I wanted a small team. Running it, I think it was about 120 people, it was just stretching my abilities. I'm a programmer, an engineer. I just love building products. I don't like doing HR. I don't like managing large teams. Even though I have written a book on management, kind of ironically, but...

That is the great CEO within, right?

Yeah. So I wrote a book called The Manager's Handbook, which is targeted towards the manager. Great CEO within, I co-wrote with my mentor and CEO coach, Matt Machari. Although I should clarify that and caveat that, which co-wrote is doing a lot of work in that sentence. He wrote most of that book. But I polished it up so I could take the credit for it. I'm just kidding.

But yeah, if you're a founder, go and read Matt's book. That is the best book that exists. So I started in companies. It's got a great CEO within. And it's got some of these marketing and sales strategies in it. But it's mostly about how to do great operations and management inside of a company, which is really important if you're raising funds and you're hiring people and you're growing the company quickly.

Yeah, I would second that. We'll link it below. I actually implemented OKRs the day after I read the chapter in that book, even though I'd heard about OKRs for like five years. We didn't have them in the company.

Next day, I implemented them and I was like, oh my god, I have so much clarity. I should have done this two years ago.

So yeah, that's going to be linked below. Thank you for writing that, Alex.

Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure.

Anyway, so where were we?

We were talking about, yeah, can you fill me in?

What was the question again?

Yeah, so we were just getting onto the difference between B2B and B2C. And you were saying that you wanted to go to B2C because you wanted a smaller team because you had the massive team in B2B. Exactly. So the nice thing about B2C companies is at least in principle, you can keep the team really small because you have to. Our ACV at Reflex is $120.

That's what we cost anything. That does not afford to pay anyone's salary if they are actually manually involved in the sales cycle. So you have no choice but to automate everything. And actually, I love that. It is really nice having a small team because every day, I just get to program every day. And with this, four of us at Reflex. But there's also a lot of downsides to B2C.

We can get into it. It's much harder to make money for a start. It's extraordinary hard. And you have a high chance, yada, yada, yada.

But yeah, that was the key reason that I wanted to get into B2C.

Well, I mean, on the making money front, we must congratulate you a couple of weeks ago hit the 20K MR milestone, I believe. That's right. It's funny here celebrating it because Clibit, we went from... The first year, we made a million bucks. And it's a long way away from 20K MRR. But I don't care. I'm having so much fun with this company.

And our goal with the company is very different than with Clibit. The Clibit is on an IPO track. That's your classic venture-backed business. With Reflex, very intentionally, we said, we do not want to IPO or majorly grow this business, partly because I don't want to run a big business. And partly because I don't think the market can support it. There is not a note-taking company that is IPO.

You know, it's like the best example, the biggest example you could point to is Evernote. And it had a pretty sorry ending to it, sadly.

So I think it's very important as a founder, when you're sitting down and you're thinking, okay, what should I do?

What company should I make?

And you're like, well, I should probably decide between B2C versus B2B.

And also I should probably decide versus, shall I raise or bootstrap?

This is such an important thing to think about, which is when you're looking at your market, can it support an IPO?

Because if you are building a company in that market, and there's no way that you can IPO or have a major acquisition, and you raise venture capital, then you have just majorly screwed your company. You have basically... You won't know it for a few years, but ultimately, you will have to sell the business. And it could have been an amazing business.

Like one that's spinning off a couple of million a year straight into your pocket. But you went ahead and raised venture capital, and now you have to sell it. And maybe you get barely anything for... It's probably the average is like seven to 10 years before one of these companies exits. So that is something to really bear in mind. You got to be honest with yourself.

Can this company potentially IPO?

Great advice for any founders listening. Can I do a little... I've been looking at Reflect this afternoon, and I'm going to try and guess how it's currently being marketed, if at all. So my first question for you, Alex, is, I see we have the free Academy.

Is this us aiming to, I guess, attract people to educate them about note-taking, and then we're going to slide the course in, slide the software in?

That was the idea. I haven't seen that working in our numbers yet.

Yeah, that was the idea. But as the Academy has evolved, most of it is quite Reflect specific.

Got it, yeah.

Yeah, I see the best SaaS companies with small ACVs, they're able to create content that basically, like, Ahrefs do this really well. They have all these amazing blog posts, and the content is actually about how to do SEO, but with Ahrefs.

And so if the content is good enough, it can work, because they still rank and get high traffic on those posts, and you just have to use that tool in order to do it. So that's the vision. I assume next up, there's going to be...

You guys have or will be building some kind of virality into the product?

Well, no, actually. Very intentionally not.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, there's another reason why we didn't raise VC.

Okay, so if you are a consumer business, and you raise VC, when your VC is going to be going, okay, what is your distribution strategy?

Because ads ain't going to cut it. It's too expensive. And you have 3% to 5% monthly churn, and you have no expansion.

Okay, so unlike B2B, where you can have net negative retention, that doesn't exist in B2C.

Okay, so you got to have some really good distribution strategies. And of course, the classic one is adding viral features to it. And ultimately, someone is going to get an email about your product.

It's like, oh, you've been added as a team member to the Figma account, or what have you. Or there's going to be some kind of virality on Twitter. Twitter and email are basically the two virality methods. If we were to raise venture funds, what we would be doing right now is adding a ton of team features to them.

And then companies would be reaching out to us, and they would be saying, okay, well, we just need this thing and this thing, and this team feature doesn't really work. So you need to spend more time here. And it would be going well as well, probably. That strategy will be working. But you know what would suck is just using it as a single player user. And we would become a wiki.

And that is exactly what has happened to these note-taking companies. Like Notion, it might have started out quite lightweight, quite a good note-taking tool. Now it's a company wiki. And it's a different business. And it's not one that I want to build. So I just want to build a great notes app for myself. So that is why we haven't added a ton of virality features very intentionally.

We have, however, added a share private link to the notes. And so I can tell you my numbers from last month, because we set up attribution. And I just quickly dive into that. So we use segment.js to go to BigQuery, stream to BigQuery. And then we use an app called equals.app. Equals.app. And it is amazing.

It is, I cannot recommend it enough. It's basically like a spreadsheet, like Google Sheets connected straight to BigQuery. And so you can slice and dice your data really easily.

Oh, and then I use, to generate the SQL queries, I just use the Jupyter Chat.

Anyway, so now we have the attribution set up. Let's look at the numbers. So last month in February, 94 customers came from Google.com.

Now, I don't know what they searched for. I can go to Google Site Analyzer and see what people are searching for there. But it obviously doesn't tie it up to my eventual customers. A lot of them are just searching in there for reflect. So somehow they found out about us.

And see, this is why attribution is so difficult. Maybe they've heard through word of mouth, someone at dinner. Maybe they've seen an email or whatever. And they just type reflect into Google.

It's like, no, it's not going to us.

So Google, you should attribute that to Google. It's tough to say. It's tough to say. So this is why it's so difficult. But we had 94 customers from Google. We had eight customers from Twitter.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was going to say, surely your personal Twitter profile has been bringing some customers.

Yeah, so I've been working on my Twitter profile, on my audience, for way too long now, about a decade. I even walked to Twitter at one point. So I've got a small fan group who like what I'm doing. They like exquisite software. That really helped early on when I could just... We got our first thousand signups just from me tweeting out.

And then the next thing is we've got Twitter, which is eight customers through Twitter. And then partly, it's not just my account. It was sharing tweets about Reflect. But we don't have anything specific there in terms of marketing. The third one is reflect.site. And that is published notes where people just click that share note with private link. We've got 10 customers through that, which is amazing, actually.

Just to clarify on that feature. So I have my notes and I want to share my notes with someone else. I get a private link and then I send that to someone. And only that person can see my notes.

Is that right?

Yeah, exactly. Precisely.

I mean, I had hoped that people would be publishing little essays on Twitter through these notes and so on. But now Twitter lets you publish an essay straight inside Twitter. And all we have, we try and make these notes very clean. We have a little Reflect logo in the corner. And that's how we sell through that.

And is that page that's generated, is that indexable by Google?

No.

I mean, if Google's not going to find it. Unless you tweet it or it's somehow linked to on the web, Google's not going to find it.

So yeah, we're not getting any SEO to that. Yeah.

So it kind of is like a little bit of a viral feature, but not in the way that's going to turn the product into a company wiki, right?

Exactly. Exactly. If there were other features we could add that would make us more money without us getting away from our core ethos, which is make a beautiful note taking tool, then I would be happy to explore them. But right now, our focus is moving towards content. So you know, when you start out with a company, you start out with your marketing strategies being very unsustainable.

With Airbnb, it was like literally just posting shit on Craigslist, right?

And then for Reflect, it was obviously me tweeting. It was various product launchers.

Again, these are like one-off campaigns. They're not sustainable. And then you also have your word of mouth, which is not controllable either. So you have those two things.

And then as you go on and the company gets a little bit more mature, we're two years in at this point with Reflect, then you start thinking about what are my more sustainable strategies?

And content is a great one.

For us, paid acquisition is not going to work. ACV is just too small. These ads are just too expensive these days. So we knew that quite early on that distributing our Facebook ads just wasn't going to work. We were going to have to be smarter. We did a bit of advertising through newsletters, which was actually quite effective, some of them.

But again, that is a very sustainable strategy. If someone is posting their newsletter once a month, that's the most you can advertise in it.

Plus, you quickly get saturation, right?

A newsletter's audience is only so large. And they see you add every single newsletter. They already know about you.

Again, these are great one-off strategies. They're not very sustainable. So now our focus is moving towards content. But I don't have much to share there yet, unfortunately. Yeah. We really just started out with that.

Well, Alex, you're the free backlink master, right?

From your Clip experience. Surely you can think of a tool to get Oracle to link back to you.

Yeah, maybe.

But yeah, it's... B2C marketing is obviously a completely different kettle of fish. But it's also a lot of fun. And we've got just me and our head of growth working on this stuff. And we get to write really interesting pieces. We've got a bunch of blog posts lined up. And we get to experiment. We get to build out all this attribution ourselves, which is quite fun.

It's a very different kettle of fish than B2B, but it's a lot of fun.

For sure, Alex. This has been a fascinating view into the world of marketing, both B2C and B2C, from a technical founder. I want to thank you so much for coming on. We're going to link to a lot of things below. I actually wasn't aware of the management handbook. So I'm going to buy that tonight. We'll also link to the great CEO within. We obviously link to Reflect app.

Anybody listening that takes notes, go and start the free trial now. Let's give Alex some podcast attribution in his March numbers.

But Alex, anything else to share with the audience?

Did I get everything right?

You got everything right.

Yeah, I think that's it. People can reach out to me on Twitter if they want. I'm at Macor, M-A-C-C-A-W. And I'm very open about pretty much everything. I can chat about fundraising strategies. Or we did actually a very unusual fundraising round where we did a crowd fund for Reflect. And goal is to pay our investors a dividend.

Oh, interesting. So we're doing a lot of different things that are maybe a little off the beaten track.

But yeah, follow me there. And you can ask me any questions and I'd be happy to answer. For sure. Alex's Twitter will be linked below.

Alex, enjoy the boat. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks so much, Tom.

All right, team, how do you find that?

Thanks to Alex for dialing in all the way from the boat in order to give us those insights. Super interesting to get this from someone who is a founder, specifically a technical founder, not from the marketer, which is normally the guest we have on the show.

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Check out the live demo and tell them that I sent you.

Finally, if you have any feedback about the show, please go to Apple Podcasts, leave a rating review. Please go to Spotify. You can now leave a rating there. I normally will read out reviews on the show. So I'll give you in your business a shout out if you make that clear what that actually is within the review. And finally, of course, thank you so much for listening.